Interview with Michael Levine

MJ: Michael Levine, thank you for joining us today.

ML: Thank you for sharing your audience.

MJ: We'd like to talk to you about your work in publicity, and the books you've authored, and anything you want to talk about.

ML: Ok.

MJ: Tell us about your work as a publicist and what all that entails.

ML: Well, in America, public relations has been kind of.... taken on a role, sort of like gift wrapping a present. If you give someone a present, and you wrap it in a very beautiful box, with lovely wrapping, the person who receives the gift thinks it has a higher perceived value than if you gave it to him in no box, or a box of less prestige. In America, gift wrapping and public relations are analogous. We kind of gift wrap everything, our politicians, our corporate heads, our movie and t.v. stars, and even our toilet paper. And so what I do is primarily for entertainment personalities, I try and gift wrap their careers, and try and make their perceived value higher, more attractive. That's kind of what the public relations game is like.

MJ: What does that entail specifically? Let's say, for instance, you work

with Michael Jackson.

ML: I've worked with him, yes.

MJ: How do you set about... What sort of things do you do specifically?

ML: With all careers, but you can do this very same thing with projects as

well; people, projects, events, you take a look at what the most positive

attributes of the project, event or person is, and you try and highlight

them. And if there are any negatives, you try and diminish them. It's kind

of maybe similar to what a woman would do with putting on makeup; try and

accent the best features, and reduce the negative, if there are any

negative features. Public relations is not manipulating, it's not lying,

it's not cheating, it's simply a process of gift wrapping.

MJ: Is it difficult for you to comment on specific people that you work

with should we speak more generally?

ML: Yeah, I think it's not appropriate for me to comment.

MJ: When you have a musician or an actor or an actress come into your

office, what sort of discussions do you have with them?

ML: Well, I think the first thing that you have to do is develop a plan.

And the way you develop a plan is by taking an accurate inventory, you kind

of see... Kind of maybe analogous to an architect building a house. You

have to draw up a blueprint, decide how many bedrooms you want. Well, in

public relations what you do is you meet with a client, and find out where

are you, where do you want to go, how do you want to get there? And what

are some of the best attributes of that client, what are some of the

weakest? You write a media plan. And this media plan is like an architect's

blueprint. And you use it in kind of the same way. You start building a

foundation. A foundation would look like a press kit. A press kit would

mean the right photos, the right biography, the right written material, and

from that, you try and entice the media into covering your client, product

or service.

MJ: Can you tell us some of the people that you have worked with, that our

viewers would be familiar with?

ML: Oh sure. I've represented everyone from Charlton Heston to Michael

Jackson to Barbara Streisand to Nancy Kerrigan, Demi Moore, Michael Fox,

and a whole host of others.

MJ: Michael J. Fox?

ML: Michael J. Fox.

MJ: Now, how do they come to know of you? Is it word of mouth?

ML: Primarily it's a referral. I've worked with a lot of the agents and

managers in town, attorneys, and it's primarily a referral business.

MJ: And do you handle or work with them for a certain period of time, or is

it open ended, or how does that work?

ML: Well, in the case of Charlton Heston, I've been representing him

consistently since 1983, so that's 13 years. But it's sometimes a matter of

crisis planning, sometimes it's a shorter period of time, other times the

relationship has a great deal of longevity like the one with Mr. Heston.

MJ: How is your role different from that of a personal manager?

ML: The personal managers are involved in the process of building careers

and seeking employment. Publicists don't seek any employment for clients.

What they do is they take what exists and gift wrap it or present it to the

media in a way that hopefully makes it attractive. But I don't... I'm not

involved in getting any of our clients work.

MJ: Now, how do you access various media outlets on behalf of your

clients? What's the process there?

ML: Well, there's a whole number of ways today, particularly with

technology, which you want to to communicate with the media. Many media

people are very involved in the internet, and involved with computers and

e-mail and faxes, but a lot of other media people like to use a telephone

or direct personal contact, and I do a lot of socializing with media

people. I find that a very useful way of communicating ideas. Whatever

way... I communicate with the media in whatever way they feel comfortable.

MJ: How important are personal relationships that you have with various

media people to the work that you're able to do on behalf of your clients?

ML: They're central. I'm not... You know, I don't think public relations

work is any different than any other work. Personal relationships,

credibility, the believability of a person when they give somebody their

word is just critical. And I think relationships are at the core of almost

every work dynamic.

MJ: You work quite closely with some stars that you've mentioned. Are

they... Do they tend to be fragile people as you meet them? We see them in

their, in all their glory, on the big screen, are they quite different in

your experience in person?

ML: I think that there is a tendency among many people to deify

celebrities. Generally speaking they're quite human, quite fragile, at

moments vulnerable. I think many people would be surprised at the

insecurity levels of many celebrities, even though they're adored and

adulated. I think that might be surprising to some.

MJ: In some cases do they, do some stars sort of call you in moments of

distress? Do you become a good friend, an uncle?

ML: For some. Not always. For some. There are some clients who seem avail

you for psychological reasons, and there are some that don't, so it's very

individual.

MJ: How do you think the process of publicity and all the issues

surrounding have changed in Hollywood over the past, say, half century?

ML: Quite a bit. In the the 30's and the 40's the medium was the movies.

The stars of that day were discovered on the screens of motion picture

theaters. Today the medium is the media. The stars of today are not

discovered in the movies. They're discovered on the cover of "People"

magazine, or "Time" or "Newsweek." So the media is much bigger today that

it was even 20 years ago. It has a deeper penetration, a more significant

domination of the culture.

MJ: So how has your work changed, or has it changed?

ML: Well, it makes my job more important. It also has... The world has...

The metabolism rate of the world has increased quite a bit. Because of

faxes and computers we're going a lot faster than we did even a decade ago.

So it puts an increased pressure on us to go even faster in communicating

our messages.

MJ: There's a sense of some people who are in the business of representing

others, at some point they want to do some of their own work. James Baker,

who was President Bush's campaign manager, and Secretary of State, at some

point wanted to get out of managing campaigns and do something on his own.

You have stepped away from your work on behalf of others to write your own

books, and do your own thinking and publish a newsletter. What was... What

were you thinking during that process. Was there a sense of "I want to step

out and do my own thing?"

ML: Well, I don't know if it was that conscious. I think it's an

interesting point you make. Writing a book for someone, I must tell you,

having written a few, it feels unusual. It's kind of like putting a message

in a bottle and throwing it out to sea. You're never really sure who's

going to see it, if it's going to be seen, when it's going to be seen. So

writing a book is a strange process. It's a much more difficult process

than one might consider, and how people react to it is unusual. For

example, I wrote a book five years ago called "Guerrilla P.R." And about

six, seven months ago, it was translated into Japanese. Now I never would

have thought five or six years ago when I began the process of writing that

book, that there would be a Japanese edition, I would get a chance to see

it in Japanese, and I would be talking to you today, and then we would be

sharing all of our thoughts here today with your audience in Japan, so it's

a very wonderful and unusual process, the process of writing a book.

MJ: What did you find the most challenging part?

ML: The most challenging part of writing a book is communicating ideas that

are complicated, simply. Finding ways of communicating to audiences that

make the ideas accessible. About 220 pages to write an introduction to p.r.

I hope that it was understandable. I think it is. The reaction tells me

that it is.

MJ: Tell us about some of your other works.

ML: Well, I'm 42 years old, and a year ago I wrote a book on midlife, about

my midlife challenge, and some might even say crisis, where I find myself

questioning things. I found out that people from the ages about about 35 to

50 tend to go through these questioning periods. Women, I'm learning, tend

to go through them more quickly, or sooner, earlier. Women are more evolved

than men, it seems, so what women kind of meet in their 30's, men tend to

run into in their 40's. It's a process of confusion, it doesn't always feel

good, but I think that if you can hang in, and understand, that there is

some healthiness to depression in life. Though is doesn't feel very good,

that it can be useful in teaching you a little about what life is to be

used for.

MJ: What conclusions have you reached, and where are you in the process of

that midlife struggle?

ML: Well, I am in the middle of it, as it happens, right in the middle, and

the... One of the conclusions I've come up with, a lot of confusion, but

one of the conclusions is that there is some healthiness to some

depression. Now, I say that locked in a culture that's a very pain avoiding

culture. In America, the idea of the healthiness of any pain is not

generally considered a common thought. So I think that's one of the central

ideas that we are human beings, and we are supposed to, on occasion, for

periods of time, short periods preferably, be depressed. And that if we're

not ever depressed, that's a bad sign, it's not a healthy sign.

MJ: What about our instincts to medicate in those situations?

ML: Well, particularly in America, they're very deep. And you know, we

talk, when we talk about addiction and medication, we generally are talking

about alcohol or drugs, but I can promise you that there other addictions

that are equally powerful; addictions to money, and addictions to power,

and sex, and even God. There are some people who use religion as a kind of

addiction or drug.

MJ: Now, you also, before these books, have written some books earlier in

your career. Tell us about those and how those got started.

ML: Well, I did a series of books, of reference books, called the "Address

Book" series. And it started in 1980, that's a long time ago, and been

going strong. And they're directories, they're reference directories on how

people can write letters to very famous people. It's meant to encourage

people to get into letter writing. And then I did one for kids, the same

kind of idea, to encourage young people to start letter writing. And

they've been very popular. And then I wrote the "Guerrilla P.R." book, and

I wrote a book on midlife, and then I just wrote... my recent book is on

career advice. And what I did was I asked about 300 very prominent people

for their best career advice, and got some great answers from great people,

everyone from President Clinton to Bill Gates, Ross Perot, very interesting

people, and interesting advice.

MJ: Who's advice maybe surprised you?

ML: Well, I got a lot of terrific advice. My favorite is Ross Perot. He

said that if you see a snake, kill it, don't form a committee on snakes,

and I thought that was just one of the best pieces of short career advice I

could imagine.

MJ: What would your advice be?

ML: Well, I don't know if I could be as clever as Mr. Perot, but I would

say that there is no shortcut through the firewalk. That the only way that

you can be successful in a long term sense is by doing the basics right

constantly. That the ideas of get rich quick schemes or shortcuts, or ways

of kind of saving or scrimping or trying to shortcut your way to success,

are strategies that do not work in the long term. That there is no shortcut

through the firewalk.

MJ: Michael, tell us about your early years, where you grew up.

ML: Sure. I was born in New York City in 1954. I had left New York City in

1977, moved to Los Angeles to pursue a career in the entertainment

industry. And that's where I've lived, where I've written my books, and

enjoyed California, it's a kind of special spirit to the state, I think.

It's quite indescribable once you've been here.

MJ: Did you have brothers and sisters growing up?

ML: I have a sister who's two years younger. My mother passed away about 12

years ago. My father lives in L.A.

MJ: What sort of work were you parents involved in?

ML: My father worked in the garment industry, and my mother also worked in

the garment industry, but she was an alcoholic, and she had a problem that

took much of her work life away, and battled that significantly. That was a

real challenge for her. My father worked in the garment industry. My sister

has become a graphic artist.

MJ: Now when you first arrived in L.A. - in the late 70's?

ML: 1977, September 16.

MJ: What were your plans?

ML: Well, they weren't as specific as I should have had. I just had an

overriding urge to be involved in the entertainment industry. Hollywood

seemed to be a very fertile soil at that time. I think it's still fertile.

And so I came more with a dream than a plan. The dream was somehow

participate in the entertainment industry.

MJ: Did you want to be an actor?

ML: No. Behind the scenes. But wasn't sure exactly how. The idea of public

relations came to me, and I started my company on June first of 1983.

MJ: And at the time you had a partner?

ML: No, I started my company all alone on a borrowed desk. About a year and

half later, a gentleman started working for me, who ultimately became a

partner at the company, and he stayed with me for eleven and a half years.

MJ: Now, recently, you've split and gone different ways.

ML: Yes, yes, about a year and a half ago.

MJ: What brought that on?

ML: I think that at a given point two people who are particularly close

personally as we were have an urge to try and see what it would feel like

on their own. And I think that's a healthy instinct. And so we, my partner

and I, thought about that, and it may have something to do with both

experiences of midlife, and I think that it was a healthy development, even

though it was a wonderful partnership for a very long time.

MJ: Now, since then have you maintained all the clients that you had then?

ML: Yeah, we separated our clients pretty much based on who we'd been

working on. His specialty was music, and I kept an entertainment client

base.

MJ: I want to return to what you were talking about the package being very

important.

ML: Sure.

MJ: How important is the package vis-a-vis what's in the package?

ML: Well, as I said earlier, you know, if I take a gift and I wrap it

nicely, and bring it to you, put it in a a good box, and bring it to you,

then there's a good chance that you think it will have a higher perceived

value than if I brought it to you with no box. But if I brought you a very

fancy wrapped gift box package, and there was no gift inside, I think you'd

be more disappointed than if I brought you no gift at all. And that's

because there is a big correlation in life, I've found, between

expectations and happiness. And so it's important that we gift wrap things,

but it's also important that there be a gift inside.

MJ: The criticism of Hollywood is you have people who are very nicely gift

wrapped on the outside, and there isn't really a lot of content.

ML: Yes.

MJ: Is that a valid criticism, and what role do you play?

ML: I think that there is an element of truth to some of that criticism. I

think that Hollywood is known as an illusionary facility; a town that is in

large part predicated on impression. There's a great correlation today

between credibility and visibility. So I think that that's a fair charge,

but there a lot of very, very talented people who work in the entertainment

industry. Hollywood has a tremendous track record of creating the most

sought after product in every country in the world in which it's

distributed.

MJ: Would you agree or disagree with the proposition that perception equals

reality?

ML: I think that there is a great deal of truth to that, particularly in

our culture, that perception is often more important than reality. But I

think reality is important as well. I think they're both important, and I

think we have to think more multi-dimensionally in that area.

MJ: What sort of vehicles provide you with an opportunity to express your

thoughts? You write for a newsletter, can you tell us about that?

ML: Yeah, I do a newsletter, also write a column for a number of papers and

news organizations from time to time. I write books, intend to keep doing

that, I enjoy that quite a bit. And I speak publicly quite a fair amount. I

gave an address about a year and a half ago at the Harvard business school,

and I reminded the students that went there, I closed my speech by

reminding the students that some ideas are so stupid that only

intellectuals can believe them. And that was my attempt at trying to remind

people that common sense is probably the least common quality given to man.

That we would do well to get in touch with more of it.

MJ: Do you find that people are surprised when they meet you, being that

you're in the p.r. business, that you have some depth and are not what we

would call a shallow person?

ML: Well, I'm not sure that it's the p.r. business as much as Hollywood.

There... Yeah, I think that there is a significant bias, and again, with

some good reason against depth in Hollywood. But there are some deep people

here. I think we need to cultivate more of that. I think we need to

cultivate that, more of that generationally. I'm not sure that the people

of our generation are known for their wisdom or depth, particularly to a

great degree either.

MJ: Do you feel any responsibility for the message or the clients, the

messages that they're sending out, or their personal lives, the fact that

you're helping to publicize them and or their careers? Do you... In

choosing clients, does that enter the realm of question?

ML: Sure. I've been asked probably a hundred times whether or not I would

represent O.J. Simpson, and my answer is "No." Of course I wouldn't. My

reason is simple. I believe that he's a murderer. And morally and

ethically, that isn't something I would be comfortable in doing.

MJ: There were charges against, for instance, Michael Jackson.

ML: Yes.

MJ: Do those charges alone, and nothing has been proven in a court of

law...

ML: Right

MJ: Do those charges alone give you pause or make you hesitate?

ML: Well, I have an ethical compass, and I check it regularly. And so I

considered that carefully, and I was convinced that Michael Jackson had

done nothing that I could see that was worthy of not representing him.

MJ: What satisfaction do you take from your work?

ML: Well, that's a very good question. It's a question I ask myself once in

a while. In my more tired and broken moments I'm not sure I have a good

answer for you. But I enjoy the art of presentation. I think it has an

important place. A human being is a kind of complex, multi-dimensional

character, and is stimulated and intrigued by a number of things, and I

think that presentation is part of it. I see myself kind of as part of that

complex pathway to the human.

MJ: How much easier is it to work with somebody who has depth of character;

a lot happening in their intellect, as opposed to somebody who, let's say,

is not quite as developed?

ML: Well, I don't know if it's easier. It may be more enjoyable or more

fulfilling in the end, but I'm not sure how much easier it is.

MJ: Can you tell us about your goals, and plans, and books you haven't

written yet?

ML: Well, I find myself with an ever changing plan for an ever changing

world. That's what a midlife crisis feels like, I'll tell you. I do have a

couple of book ideas that I'm working on. I am actually working on a book

on the future, where I want to know what the world's going to look like 25

to 50 years from now. I'm thinking about that quite seriously. I'm thinking

about doing a sequel on my book on midlife, which has been very well

received, called "Lessons at the Halfway Point." And beyond that, I'm not

sure. I have an ever changing plan for an every changing world.

MJ: And would you have any advice for somebody who wants to get involved in

the type of work you're involved in?

ML: It's... I think the art of presentation is great work, it's fulfilling

work, it's meaningful work, and I think that I would encourage people to

investigate it seriously. The best way that I know of doing that here in

America is through something called an internship, where you basically go

to work for a company for a short period of time. It's like a trainee

program. And that's a very good way of learning more about it.

MJ: Michael, thanks so much for joining us today.

ML: Thank you. Thanks.

MJ: Michael thanks for joining us today.

ML: Thank you very much