Interview with Zarco Guerrero



MJ: Zarco Guerrero, thank you for joining us today.

ZG: You're welcome. Nice to be here.



MJ: Tell us about this place, what you do here.

ZG: Well, I do a number of things. I spend a lot of time doing sculpture.

I've been doing masks for about the last ten or fifteen years, working with

dancers and theater companies, performance artists, and trying to bring the

masks back to life, create, recreate the tradition of mask making and the

use of masks in contemporary urban society.



MJ: So you're a mask maker.

ZG: I think primarily I'm a sculptor, but masks are definitely an extension

of the sculptural art form and that's one thing I've been concentrating on.



MJ: But you're involved in a variety of artistic projects. You're a

musician, sculpting, mask making. Anything I've missed?

ZG: Well, I like to think of myself as a cultural activist. Because

sculpture, painting, music, theater, dance, they all come from within, from

the spirit of creating, a creative energy, a creative force. And so

whatever form it may take, I'll go with it no matter what. And as an

artist, I've had to really diversify what I do in order to survive as an

artist.



MJ: In terms of the mask making, what are the roots and the connections

between your work and life here in Arizona and traditions?

ZG: Well, the first mask that I saw as a child was as a very young man

nearby here, in a town called Guadalupe, Arizona, where the masks are used

by the Yaki Indians, especially for their Easter ceremonies. And being of 

Yaki heritage, my father took me there every year to see the dance and see

the rituals. And when I grew up, I started having an interest in painting

and sculpture, particularly portrait painting, and afterwards as a young

adult, I went to live in Mexico and discovered, rediscovered, I should say,

the use of the mask in Mexico and I became totally fascinated and inspired

by the mask. This tradition of the mask and the history of the mask.



MJ: What was the role of the mask in ancient Mexican society?

ZG: The mask was a means of having some control over the natural forces of

the environment. For example, calling for rain, for fertility, for hunting,

for curing, for teaching, and for maintaining a certain social order. So it

had many uses in ancient Mexico and I wanted to try to give it a new

meaning in a contemporary society. That's why I incorporate the talents and

the resources of dancers, actors, musicians, and performance artists when

bringing my masks back to life. 



MJ: And did that role change as Mexican society progressed?

ZG: Oh definitely. One of the things that's so fascinating about Mexico is

that the mask survived 500 years of oppression, repression from the church,

economic hardship, and geographical isolation. And despite all those

factors, the mask continued to survive, and in some places, actually

thrive, in different parts of Mexico. So, for that reason, I felt the masks

to be extremely important to our history and to our culture, and something

that deserved to be reintroduced into society and as an art form.



MJ: Were masks feared by some people?

ZG: Well, masks were used in warfare as well, and I'm sure they had, there

were certain masks that were meant to instill fear in the enemy, but

probably the most important, than instilling fear, when the mask was used,

the person using it, felt more power, you know, rather than instilling fear

in the enemy, I think it instilled the feeling of power in the person who

was wearing the mask or the costume, in whatever the case may be.



MJ: As Mexico was conquered by various countries at one time or another,

what happened to the masks?

ZG: Well, the masks suffered, and almost went into hiding, and in some

cases, the original uses of the masks were actually forgotten. But, Mexico

continues to this day to be one of the most prolific mask producing

countries in the world. But very few artists have seen the importance of

the mask in contemporary expression, and that's why it's so important to

me.



MJ: What about sculpting? Is that a traditional Mexican art as well?

ZG: Oh, definitely. I think Mexico has one of the most profound legacies in

the world as far as sculpture and painting is concerned. And particularly

mask making. The monolithic sculptures of the Omeks, the Mayas, the Aztecs,

and even contemporary sculptures of today. Mexico has a very rich artistic

tradition, and being from the Southwest, people like myself,

Mexican-Americans, or Chicanos, we consider that our heritage, and being,

living here in the United States, we have even more reason to emphasize our

cultural heritage in this society.



MJ: How long has your family been here in Arizona?

ZG: One aspect of my family, one branch of our family tree, has always been

in the Southwest. As a matter of fact, we have more roots in the Southwest

than we actually do in Mexico. And that goes back to the time when the

Southwest was part of Mexico. And that was only a little over a hundred

years ago.



MJ: Is there an Arizona feeling or texture or something that is distinct

from both American and Mexican art?

ZG: I think you have to really make a distinction between Southwestern art

and what we would call Chicano art or Mexican-American art from the

Southwest. There's a very different, a definite difference. Part of the

main difference would be Southwest art tends to romanticize and idealize

the indigenous past, the indigenous heritage, whereas the Chicano art

emphasizes the indigenous heritage, but from the standpoint of history and

from the standpoint of the struggle of the people of the Southwest, both

Mexican-American/Chicano, and the indigenous people. So it's much more

socially aware, it's also much more political.



MJ: You've also studied in Japan the Noh mask making. Can you tell us about

your experience there, and what you learned?

ZG: Well, I've always been a great fan of Japanese art, and the Noh mask in

particular. And it was always my dream to go to Japan and study Japanese

carving, study the Japanese Noh art form, and I was fortunate enough in

1986 to receive a fellowship from the National Endowment for the Arts to

study mask making in Japan. So consequently, I spent one year in Kyoto,

studying under Joshun Fukaku san in Kyoto.



MJ: What was that like?

ZG: It was the most incredible artistic experience of my life. It's one of

the most wonderful experiences I ever had. I had to really, I've never

worked as hard, and so much was expected of me under that discipline, and

that's... The main reason I wanted to go to Japan was to work under that

type of discipline, and be able to adopt, so to speak, the standards of the

Japanese artist, the Japanese masters, and so for that time of my life, I

was working under very harsh conditions, and I think it brought out the

best in me as an artist, and as a carver.



MJ: What do you mean by discipline?

ZG: Well, I was expected to work every day that I was there in Japan, eight

hours a day carving, which was very demanding and very painful, as far as

being a Westerner, and having to sit on the floor eight hours a day, and 

holding the mask with my feet, and carving constantly, my hands would ache

every night, and my whole world became the study of Noh, and the study of

Buddhism, and the aesthetic of the Japanese. So I brought those things back

with me, and have since incorporated those standards and those styles in my

own, in everything I do, especially in mask making.



MJ: How has it changed your work?

ZG: It has tended to make my masks more exact as far as features are

concerned, as far as symmetry is concerned. It also had taught me to have

more respect for tradition and for the spiritual aspect of the mask.



MJ: And you mentioned there were some connections you think between Mexican

art and Japanese art. Can you talk about that?

ZG: Well, in my study of masks from all over the world, from Mexico, from

Africa, Japan, from throughout the world, there seems to be a lot of common

denominators, especially stylistically. A lot of the Japanese Noh masks

look very similar to masks found in different parts of Mexico or masks

found on the Northwest coast, that type of thing. So I could see a lot of

differences, a lot of common denominators. As a matter of fact, sometimes

it seemed to me like masks made from different parts of the world, in

different time periods could have been made by the same individual. So for

me that was fascinating to discover those types of things.



MJ: How do you spend an average day in your work here in your studio?

ZG: Well, I work on a lot of different projects at once. I work on maybe

one or two pieces of sculpture, maybe one or two masks, and so I'm

constantly going from one studio to the next, maybe making a mask in clay,

and then going to another mask and casting it in fiberglass, or I might one

afternoon decide to spend most of the day carving on a wooden mask. So

that's the way I'm most productive, rather than working on one thing, I

like to work on a number of projects at once.



MJ: Are your masks and other works for sale?

ZG: Oh, definitely.



MJ: And what kind of people purchase your masks?

ZG: For the most part, and this goes back to an earlier question you had,

people who buy Southwest art aren't usually the collectors of my art.

They're usually people who collect rare works of art - works from other

countries, Mexican art, African art, art from Alaska, that type of thing.

So it is definitely a unique group of people.



MJ: Can you give us an idea or a range of what a typical mask would cost?

ZG: Oh, they would... different prices for different people. For example,

for artists, for theater groups, and for performing artists, I hardly ask

anything at all, because they're people that don't have the money to buy

them. But a typical mask can range anywhere from 500 dollars to 5 thousand

dollars, depending on if it's made out of wood, made out of fiberglass, if

it's an original, or if it's part of a series.



MJ: Now, do you sell most to, you know, private individuals, and are they

in their homes, or are they at businesses or where do you think most of

them are?

ZG: Yeah, definitely, they're part of people's collections, and they're

people who... the masks are very easily misunderstood, and misinterpreted,

so a lot of times people see the masks, and more often than not, they're

frightened by the masks, but there are a few people out there like myself,

who can see, who can find the beauty in something that might otherwise be

frightening or too aggressive for a person to have in their home.



MJ: People think the masks are evil sometimes?

ZG: A lot of times they misinterpret them, they see them as evil, rather

than seeing them as an image to ward off evil, to expel evil, which is

probably truer in the general sense.



MJ: What do you see them as? Are they objects, just matter, or is there

some spiritual thing behind it, or how do you see it?

ZG: Typically the mask for me, the masks I make, which I call the Nawal

mask, they're the blending of animal and human motifs, to me they represent

the kinship between man and the animal kingdom. They represent the fact

that at one time we were able to live in harmony with our environment, with

the animal kingdom. And unfortunately that's not true anymore.

Unfortunately, we're destroying our environment, and we're destroying the

animal kingdom. So when the masked dancers put on my masks, they become

symbolically linked once again to the animal kingdom, and that's the

message behind the arts, behind the masks that I create.

MJ: How often do these shows take place?

ZG: Well, primarily I make my masks and the puppets for the Day of the

Dead, the Mexican "Dia de los Muertos," which is celebrated in November,

and we do a number of celebrations during the month of November here in the

Phoenix area.



MJ: Can you explain that Day of the Dead?

ZG: The Day of the Dead is an ancient holiday in Mexico, where it is

believed that our ancestors, those who have passed away, come back to dwell

amongst the living. So the skull, in Mexico, is probably one of the most

prominent images throughout the history of art in Mexico, and continues to

be. And the skull in Mexico represents life, rebirth, regeneration, and

represents our ancestors. So it has a very positive connotation, which is

very contradictory to the symbol of the skull in the United States.



MJ: Here in this part of Arizona, what is the artistic community like? Is

it growing? What do you sense here?

ZG: Well, the predominant art center, you would think, or is, actually, is

Scottsdale, Arizona, which again, is the Southwest art, cowboy and Indian

art. But I'm not really a part of that scene. My artwork is more, has to

do, I think, in the realm of performance art, or living art. Art outside of

galleries, art outside of museums. Art as part of ritual, celebration, and

theater.



MJ: How important is it for you that art not be in those places, that it

come alive?

ZG: Well I think that it's important that those places exist, but I think

it's more important that art is alive, and in our communities and in our

schools. That's my job. I think that's what differentiates me and other

Chicano artists from artists who can be considered Southwest artists, or

other artists who deal with the imagery of cowboys and Indians.



MJ: What do you see the significance, in terms of historical terms, of your

art, and your work? What is the significance of keeping it alive?

ZG: Well I see my link going back as a mask maker, hundreds and thousands

of years to Mexico, and also here in the Southwest. Because of my heritage,

the mask art form was an integral part of everyday life. And that was lost

in a big way with the conquest. And I see my link as bringing the mask back

and keeping it alive in contemporary society, and giving it meaning.



MJ: You're involved in several different forms of art. Is there one that

you enjoy the most?

ZG: Well, I think the thing that's the most challenging to me, and because

of the challenge, probably the thing I enjoy the most, is sculpture, and

portraiture.



MJ:    Can you tell us about some recent projects you've been working on?

 ZG: Currently I'm working on a monument to Cesar Chavez, who was a leader

of the farm workers, and he died, it's going to be almost two years ago,

and he was from Arizona. And for a lot of people, particularly people of

Mexican descent, he's our hero, he's one of the greatest men who's ever

come from this area, and I think a great American in every sense of the

word.



MJ: What will this monument be like, and where will it be?

ZG: It will be installed at Cesar Chavez park in Phoenix. It's a project

that is funded by the city of Phoenix, and the monument itself will be an

eight foot tall bronze statue of Cesar Chavez. 



MJ: Now, how long will it take from beginning to end?

ZG: Well, I've been working on the project now for almost a year, studying

Cesar Chavez, studying his gesture, his movement, his facial expressions.

I'm meeting with people who knew him. I had met him on a number of

occasions, but meeting people who were really closer to him, like his wife

and his family. And so the project itself, when I actually begin the

sculpture will probably take between three and four months to complete.



MJ: And what will you be trying to capture about him in the work?

ZG: Probably the things that were the most obvious to most people about

Cesar Chavez was his inner strength, and his dignity. I think those are the

most important things.



MJ: You also have smaller works of him you've done before, right?

ZG: Yes.



MJ: Are those different?

ZG: Well, they serve as studies, and every study helps you to learn a

little bit more, and to delve deeper into the person, and into the

personality. My job is really to convey the man and the image to people who

never had the opportunity to know him, and also to keep his memory alive.



MJ: Why did you decide to become involved in art?

ZG: Well, I don't think it was something I actually ever made a conscious

decision about. My father was an artist before me, he was a portrait

artist. His father was an artist as well. So it was just something that we

did in our family, and it was expected of me to do. So that was also one of

the things that was easy for me to identify with, with the Japanese, that

idea of tradition.



MJ: Passing it down from one generation to another?

ZG: Yes.



MJ: Now your kids are also pretty involved. Tell me about that.

ZG: It just... tradition continues. My oldest son is a musician, and also

an established artist in his own right at 13, and so his little brother and

little sister just seem to be following in his footsteps.



MJ: Can you take us through the process of making a mask? How does it begin

and where does it end, and what happens in between?

ZG: Well, it usually begins with an idea. A lot of times I like to work

with the subconscious, what a lot of people call the collective

subconscious. And I start with a piece of clay, just a big ball of clay,

and start forming and shaping and pushing and pulling, and taking away and

adding to it until an image begins to appear. That's usually the way I

work. Sometimes people will come to me with an idea. Like I mentioned

before, I work with other artists, who have an idea for a dance mask, and I

work with them in developing that character, that idea. Masks are powerful

tools for transformation, so whenever I make a mask, I'm always thinking

about the person who's going to be wearing the mask, and what idea that

mask will eventually convey to the spectator. So a lot goes into it. A lot

goes into it. It has to be... it has to fit the dimensions of the person

wearing it, the character of that person. It also has to have the power to

let that person transform into the character of the mask.



MJ: What do you mean by that?

ZG: Well, throughout the world, masks were used to transform the wearer

into a deity, a ghost, a demon, a force of nature, whatever it may be, so

the mask has to lend itself to that. The artist has to be able to look at

the mask, identify with the mask, and feel comfortable in wearing the mask,

and moving with the mask, in order to portray that character, and to bring

that character to life.



MJ: Do you see in the future... Where do you see all this going, in terms

of the cultural heritage?

ZG: Well, I see my work, hopefully, I like to think of my work as being a

tool to educate people. Not only people of Mexican descent or indigenous

descent, but all people in all aspects of society into the richness that

each culture offers to another culture. Maybe... You don't have to be of

Mexican descent, or be of the Southwest to appreciate my art. I appreciate

art from all over the world. I'm thankful for cultures that continue to

emphasize their heritage, to live their heritage, their language, their

music, their visual arts. Those are the things that enrich my life. So my

life and my art come from the standpoint of my heritage, my culture. That's

my gift to people of other cultures. And I think culture is a way to

express our humanity. This is our gift to the rest of the world And so

masks, sculpture, music, theater, it's a way of making the world a more

human place to live. So I think that's probably the underlying meaning.



MJ: Thanks for joining us today.

ZG:  You're welcome. Thank you.