Interview with Greg Kaufman

MJ: Greg, thanks for joining us today.

GK: You're welcome.

MJ: This is your office, right off the beach. How did you get a spot like

this?

GK: Well, we've been here in this spot about ten years, and we always felt

it was sort of appropriate, if we're going to study whales in the ocean,

that we be near it, rather than away from it. So this is a big

transgression actually from my early days, 20 years ago, when I spent... my

office was a 16 foot rubber boat. So even though I spend part of my year

doing that, I also am the head of this non-profit organization. And so I

spend a fair amount of my time behind a desk now as well.

MJ: Tell us a bit about your group. What do you guys do?

GK: Well, you know, we were founded actually in 1979, and we incorporated

in 1980. We're an international non-profit research and conservation

organization. We are different than, I would say, almost all other

non-profit groups or animal welfare groups you'd ever hear of, because

predominately those groups are activist groups, lobbyist type groups. We

were founded with the principle that you could only save whales, or save

the ocean, or save the ocean habitat and the animals within based on

scientific knowledge, not based on emotion. And even though I love the

whales, and I cared about them, I knew that we weren't going to modify

policies about whales unless we had the facts. And this was born really out

of my attending in 1979, the International Whaling Commission, and

listening to at that time, the whaling nations sort of complaining that

they were being railed into stopping whaling because of emotion, and not on

scientific fact. And quite frankly, I agreed with that. I thought that

emotionally I thought it was probably wrong. But I thought that we did need

the facts. We do need to base laws and regulations on facts, and science,

and not on wishful thinking. And so our organization is predominately that,

is scientifically based and grounded. And we actually go out and study

these whales. We swim with them, we photograph them, we establish long term

scientific studies to understand things like population numbers and

distribution, density, reproductive cycles, all these things that were not

understood previous to this, and we're doing it by studying live animals,

not by studying dead animals.

MJ: Do those groups do more harm than good do you feel?

GK: I think that... I think you need what I call the "eco--guerillas". I

think there are groups that bring issues to the forefront, and I think

that's worthwhile, but I think at some point the emotion stops, and then

you have... If you affect lawmakers, or regulatory agencies into looking at

an issue, then you better be willing to stand there and back it up with

some evidence or data, to get them to take the next step. And I think,

unfortunately, in this day and age of media, there's too many campaigns

that I would call "mediagenic." In other words, they grab headlines, and

then they go away overnight. And given the fact that this organization is

16 years old, we haven't gone away overnight. In fact, we've grown. When I

started this group, it was really just myself and a few other people, and

now today, you know, we have 55 employees that work at this organization.

We work in Australia, we're working in Japan, we work New Zealand, we work

in South America, and we're headquartered here in Hawaii. And Hawaii, you

know, is a beautiful place to live and be headquartered from. And it's

nice, I kind of feel like the research that we've done here has sort of

rippled across this big pond of the Pacific, and touched all these other

areas in the Pacific, and begun to change people's attitudes about whales

and the ocean.

MJ: Can you tell us about your background, where you were born and reared,

and all that stuff?

GK: I grew up in the Pacific Northwest, in Oregon, which was a beautiful

part of the United States. It was rough and rugged at that time. I grew up

actually in the country, about, although it was about an hour's drive away

from the ocean. I remember seeing my first whale when I was four years old.

It was a grey whale. And remembering that... As a kid you always have this

different perspective, and my brothers and I, we would go to the beaches

during the summertime with my family, and we used to... I have five

brothers. I grew up in Oregon, and in Oregon, it's a very.... sort of

almost heartland feeling there at the time when I grew up, and my brothers

and I would always play a game to see who could see the ocean first, as we

rounded over the Cascade Mountains. And I remember one day rounding the

Cascade Mountains, my brothers were screaming about, "There's the ocean,

there's the ocean," and I saw something what I thought was bigger than the

ocean move out there. And it turned out to be, my cousin later told me,

that "That's a whale you were watching out there." And I never forgot that,

because as a kid I thought that those whales were actually bigger than the

ocean, that they... the ocean was like a mud puddle compared to this big

thing out there. And so I always had a fascination about these animals and

what they were. And beyond that, growing up in the woods, and having a

creek running through our back yard, and, you know, having the animals,

chickens and ducks, and cats and dogs, I guess I always had a wanderlust

dream for adventure. My idols were really biologists. I loved the idea of

Darwin getting in the "Beagle" and sailing around the world, and kicking

over rocks, and jumping onto islands, and I loved the thoughts of the

"Swiss Family Robinson," and those kinds of ideas. So I guess as a kid I

grew up with a respect for nature and a love and desire to go do something

adventurous.

MJ: Where did you get the idea to begin the work you're in now?

GK: Well, as I grew older, and contemplated going to college, one of the

things I wanted to be able to do, is make a contribution. You know, you

have all sorts of choices when you're a kid, and a teenager, and you're

going to college, and a lot of kids follow. If their dad's a doctor, they

become a doctor. If their dad's a lawyer, they become a lawyer. And I

wanted to sort of open my eyes, and say, what could I best do that could

make a contribution to mankind? What kind of discoveries could I make? How

could I be a Linus Pauling, or a Louis Pasteur, or something I mean, it was

grand and grandiose in thinking, but it was really that idea of how could I

make a difference? And I really was drawn to the ocean and the whales, and

I really wanted to do that. But in my heart of hearts, I knew that there

was no job out there that said,"Wanted: Whale research scientist." There

just wasn't that job available. Nobody was doing that. So, part of me

thought, "Well, I could also pursue a medical degree, and therefore, I'd

always get invited onto a research program, because they'd always want a

doctor. And I went and pursued a biology based pre-med degree, and all I

took was biology in college. And when I was enrolled in college, I actually

came over here on my winter breaks for about six weeks, and I studied

whales out here, with people who were doing it then. And when it came time

to graduate from college, I had the choice then of coming and being a hard

luck researcher and trying to make it happen, or going on to medical

school. And sort of a funny story is that I had some medical school

interviews. And the one school I really wanted to go into, I sat down for

this interview. And the first question they asked me was, "What's scuba

stand for?" And without thinking, I said, "Self contained underwater

breathing apparatus." And their eyes all perked up, and they thought, "Oh,

well, this guy really does know something about the ocean." So the whole

interview started talking about the ocean, and my love for the ocean. And

nobody wanted to talk to me about med school, or my grades, and I'm getting

very nervous there. And finally, the examiner says to me, "Could you

explain to me why your advisor recommends that you not be admitted to a

medical school?" My jaw drops to the table, and I'm thinking, "Oh my God."

I'm devastated. I got good grades, I had good scores, and now all of a

sudden somebody says I can't go become a medical doctor, how am I going to

get paid so I can go do whale research? I said, "Gee, I have no idea." He

said, "Well, let me read what she wrote." And basically, in essence she

wrote, she said she felt that it would be a terrible waste to put me in a

mill with all other medical students, memorizing and doing the same thing,

and that I would better be suited pursuing my dream, which was studying

whales, and taking that venue in life, that in the end run, she believed I

would be better off serving mankind that way. I got to tell you I was

really crestfallen, because that sort of meant like, "Does that mean I'm

not getting accepted in medical school?" But I walked away and really

reexamined that, and basically four weeks later I got on a plane and flew

to Maui, and never returned back. And that was it. I'd just decided.

MJ: Are any of your brothers involved in this kind of work?

GK: No, actually, my brother's a very famous artist in Europe, in Germany.

My other brothers are, one's an entrepreneur, and the other's involved in

government work. So we all do something very different. And my parents come

and visit me. And they've gone to Australia, and seen our research in

Australia, and they've come here. And to say they're mesmerized by what I

do is probably an understatement. They probably wake up every day, or

probably once a month, and look at each other, and say, "How did we raise a

kid like that? Where did he come from?" But I think that if I look at my

family as a whole, and my brothers, we're all very sort of independent and

entrepreneurial in a fashion. We're not probably in very traditional jobs,

and I think for... My mom and dad grew up in Kansas. Right in the

heartland. And I think from that growth I really got that appreciation of

respect and care for the environment. Only take what you need. And make

sure you give back.

MJ: How do you divide up your time between Maui, the mainland, Australia?

What's the mix?

GK: Well, we're in Australia, the foundation does research in Australia

from about the middle of June to the first of December. I lecture, I

travel. You know, as needed to participate in various environmental

endeavors, whether it be serving on governmental committees, or being an

advocate, or speaking. So my home is Maui. It depends. I could tell you

that some years it's six months out of the year I'm here. Some years it's

ten months out of the year, and some years it's nine months, three months

out of the year, I'm nine months elsewhere. So it really depends. I have a

wife and two little girls. My youngest of which grew up, the first six

months of her life was strapped to her mom's chest on top of a lighthouse

in the outback of western Australia. And she knows whales like nobody's

business. I look at my... I have a two year old and a six year old, and

their love for the ocean, and their understanding of whales is incredible.

And it's... Really, honestly, I don't sit down and lecture them about the

ocean or whatever. I think it's they're getting the same thing I got from

my parents. It's just a deep appreciation, and a deep understanding. Just

by seeing. Seeing and learning by what they see. Setting an example.

MJ: What do you love about the ocean?

GK: Its mystery. I really think that's it. You know, I think when you look

out at it like now, it's like this big deep blue desert from the top. You

know, it's just, it's sort of faceless out there. You see boats floating on

top of it, but it's deep. It's mysterious. I mean if we were over on the

big island, and you step off the shoreline, you drop 3000 feet straight

down. It's just that quick. Here, between here and these islands you see

behind us, it's no more than about 250 feet deep. So the ocean level, or

drop, is 250 feet, which is not that significant. It would be to all of us,

but in terms of depth, we'd be looking at a big valley out there. And when

you look at Hawaii in particular, Hawaii is the most remote island chain in

the world. It has the most diverse species of birds and most diverse

species of marine life. They're more colorful here, you have endemic and

endangered species here, you have introduced species here. It's incredible.

And I think spending my life trying to understand what's underneath that

blue veil there is tremendous and very exciting. And I think for me, whales

become a window on the soul of the sea. That whales draw people's attention

to that blue mass out there. That the whales become a personality. Just

like the dolphins do. They become a smile or a face on the ocean that

people can relate to. And I think once you get them to look into the face

of a whale or in the face of a dolphin, and contemplate these animals,

because they're nothing that we encounter every day, people then start

beginning to be more aware of what the ocean is about, what it holds for

each and every one of us. And you know, our oxygen comes from there. Our

life force really comes from there. And you go out in space and take a look

back, it's a blue planet. If you were visiting us from another star, you

would probably imagine the intelligent life form lived out in the blue

stuff, and not in the green and brown stuff.

MJ: What types of research specifically are you working on right now for

instance?

GK: Well, when I first started studying humpback whales, there were fewer

than 600 of them here. And so we really had to get a handle on just, who

was out there, how many were there, how long is it going to take them to

reproduce, where's their favorite area to hang out, what are they doing

here, what are the social dynamics amongst them? And, you know, you can

whip all those out, in 30 seconds like that. Little did I realize at the

time that you're really talking about a lifetime endeavor. These are long

lived marine mammals. They spend 90 percent of their time below the

surface, so they keep their secrets to themselves. And we're just now

starting to piece together the population puzzle, the reproductive puzzle.

Exciting things we've just begun to find out is that the population is

increasing. We estimate that there's over 3000 whales out here now. We're

starting to see the population spread out through the Hawaiian islands. It

used to be 60 to 70 percent of the animals were found within the four

island area, and it's starting to diminish. It's starting to spread into

Kawaii, and Oahu, and the big island in greater numbers now. And

simultaneously with this expansion of numbers of whales in Hawaii, we're

seeing the same analogous thing happen in the Japanese islands, Okinawa,

and Ogasawara, down south of Tokyo. We're also seeing an increase of

animals in Mexico. And like... With those like increases, we're starting to

get a new picture on how whales move through the Pacific. For instance, we

now have whales that have been sighted in Kawaii and have been found over

in Ogasawara in Japan. A recent finding by other researchers just found

whales in Ogasawara were found feeding over in B.C., Vancouver, in the

summertime, and then found subsequently back in Ogasawara in the winter

time. We had one whale in Mexico that switched breeding grounds in the

season and left Mexico in February, and came to Maui in March. So it's

starting to draw a new picture that the whales aren't just going to Alaska

and coming back to Maui, and feeding, breeding here and feeding there.

They're probably pretty pan-Pacific travelers. They're probably driven by

food availability, and in the case of the winter months, finding the most

acceptable mates. If you're a male, you got to go where the girls are. And

if you're a female, you got to go where the hunks are, you know.

MJ: How long does it take a whale to travel from Hawaii to Japan, say?

GK: Well, from Hawaii to Alaska, the previous time we had was about 75

days, based on using photographs of their tails. We look at the underside

of their tails, and we use them as fingerprints. The... Another research

team just got a re-sight of about 37 days, which halved that. And that's

probably no tan unusual amount of time. I would say that they could travel

100 miles a day easily. 100 to 150 miles a day easy. So to do the 3000

miles in 30 days is not unusual. There or beyond.

MJ: How much time do you spend in the water?

GK: We have a research team that goes out every day, and I have the

opportunity to go out whenever I want. The boat's out there right now, as a

matter of fact. And part of the research that we do do is underwater.

That's really what my forte was, that's what I perfected, was being able to

go down and spend prolonged periods of time with the whales underwater.

People always ask me, "Well, do you do that by scuba diving, or do you do

it free diving; snorkeling?" And we don't use scuba, and there's a reason

for that. When whales compete with one another, they blow bubbles

underwater. They use underwater exhalation as a way of putting out like a

smokescreen as it were, to defend themselves, to disorientate their

attackers or pursuers. And so, when you use scuba underwater with whales,

they see you as an aggressive posture, making these bubbles. And instead,

my position has always been to go into the water and be like flotsam and

jetsam, be like a log, and just lay out there, and watch the whales be

themselves, do their thing, without interrupting. Because as a scientist, I

don't want to go and shake their pec fin, I really want to see how they

shake each other's pec fin, what they're doing with one another. And I have

seen some incredible things underwater. Typically, when you're observing

mothers and calves out here, mothers give birth to their calves in the

winter time, and typically a mother will be about 60 feet below the

surface, and her calf will lay right under her chin. And the calf can only

hold its breath about two or three minutes. It has to come back up to

breathe. And the mother will stay down for about 12 minutes, so about four

cycles of the calf, and then she'll come up on the fourth cycle with the

calf. And what I'll do is I'll go out and lay in the water above them, and

then wait for the calf to leave its mother and then come up for a breath.

And what I'm trying to get on the calf is its sex. We're trying to

determine sex ratio at birth, females versus males. And often times the

calf will come up, and if you're laying at the surface, he'll turn and look

at you, and go, "Oh, what is this?" and swim around you a few times, and

then swim back down to mom. Occasionally you get calves who are just very

precocious. And I had a calf come up to me and swim around me a few times,

look at me, look at his mom, and swim up and grabbed me with his pec fins,

and started taking me down to its mom. Sort of, "Gee, mom, look what I

found at the surface." And I got about 20 feet below the surface, and I

think the calf could feel me start to struggle a little bit, so he let me

go, and that calf and its mother spent about two hours at the surface,

swimming around with me, and I'd get out and take pictures, and I'd go

reload, and they'd wait for me. They'd sit off the boat. I'd reload my

camera, get back in the water, and they'd wait for me out there. And when

you see that that kind of activity involving myself and a couple other

researchers has been going on out here since 1977, there are some really

interesting encounters that are starting to happen out here. What I believe

to be happening out here now is we're getting second generation and third

generation calves that are born to mothers who saw me once when they were

babies. And so they're less resistant to human activity. And whale watch

boats out here are reporting greater and greater increases of close

approaches by mothers and calves and other animals. And it may be because

they learned at a young age that these humans are nothing to be afraid of.

MJ: With all the time you spend with whales and dolphins, can you put your

mind inside theirs? And how do they see us, how do they see humans?

GK: You know, I almost wouldn't venture to say. Other than the fact that

their encounters are a few brief encounters with us swimming with them.

What I think is probably more interesting is to imagine what they think

when they look up and see all these humans trapped in this cage that's

floating on the water. I mean, you think about when we go to the zoo, we

all crowd around the lion's cage and look in. Whale watching is sort of the

inverse of that. The animals are free, and the humans are what are trapped.

And I think more importantly, what I have learned from watching whales and

dolphins is a respect that they have for their environment and animals that

they do encounter. For instance, if a whale were to come into our bedroom,

which is what Maui waters are the winter time, in the middle of the day or

night, we'd grab the gun, or we'd call 911, or we'd call for the police.

Whales, on the other hand, I've never felt a sense of fear by them. I've

certainly seen them beat each other up and compete for access to females,

and males fight and draw blood, but I have been in the water in those pods,

and never felt an inkling that those animals would ever direct that towards

me, because they don't feel threatened by me. I think they're intelligent

enough to know that I don't pose a threat in their common world. I'm more

of a curiosity to them, just as probably they maintain the same curiosity

to me.

MJ: Thanks for joining us today.

GK: You're welcome.

MJ: How would you like to see our attitude toward, you know, marine life

change? What would you like to see our views evolve into?

GK: Well, I think if the first thing that we can do is to convince people

that the ocean is not a garbage dump. That the ocean isn't a place where we

discard excess nets, that we dump oil, that we dump our pollutants, that

our sewage spills out into, that all our agricultural runoff... We got to

start believing that this is not a vast, endless resource here. That we can

destroy it in a heartbeat. And I think one of the greatest things for my

mind that travel... the open travel that we experience today has had an

effect on a lot of people to come to areas like Hawaii, and realize how

pristine and beautiful the ocean can be. I know now we have a lot of

visitors from Japan, and a lot of them come and talk to me and say, "Our

waters are polluted. Our water is very brown and dirty. You're waters are

so beautiful." And they go home, and I think when people see whales and

they see clean ocean like this, they go back to places like Japan, or they

go back to the Midwest, or they go back to the East coast, and they start

fighting for clean water, they start fighting to clean up the shorelines.

And I think if we can start to take steps towards reducing marine

pollution, reducing our abuse of the ocean, and not over-fishing it, and

preserving it for future generations, because it is dying. Beneath the

beautiful palm tree exterior of Hawaii, I will tell you some things about

Hawaii, is that over 50 percent of our turtles here have mysterious tumors

on them. Our reefs are disappearing because of runoff and pollution.

There's algaes right now, mysterious algaes that are blooming, strangling

our reefs. We have over-fishing off shore by the fishing fleets. Our bottom

fishing stocks have almost plummeted to nothing. They're getting ready to

regulate these. So even though it looks like paradise in exterior, there is

trouble here in paradise as well. Now, we are taking steps to mitigate

those, but don't be misled that Hawaii doesn't have its problems as well.

And I think it's by activists like myself, and concerned individuals that

we will protect and preserve Hawaii's oceans in the long run. But I think

that every person and every community that they live in has to take that

action upon themselves as well. It's as simple as, when you go to the

beach, don't let your sandwich wrapper fly in the ocean. Go retrieve it,

because that sandwich wrapper is going to look like a jellyfish to a turtle

or a dolphin.

MJ: Do you still eat, you know, meat or fish products, in spite of the time

you spend with them? Or how do you feel about that?

GK: I don't... It's funny to say, I don't eat mammals, and, but I do eat

chicken and fish. Chicken sometimes, I do eat fish. I'm sort of 80 percent

vegetarian, and I eat chicken and fish sometimes. And I really stopped

eating mammals on a research project when my... partly because we didn't

have a budget enough to buy a lot of beef, and partly because I had some

vegetarians who kept bringing food every day, and that's all they brought

was vegetables to eat, and so eventually the diet just changed. I don't

know that I want to foist my views of what people should eat. I think if

we're all sensible, and just take what we can, take what we need, and not

over-fish, over-farm, over-harvest, I think we'll be all right. I think,

though, the greater problem that's facing the ocean and the land right now

is overpopulation. There are just a lot of bloody people in the world right

now. And everywhere you go. Even my hometown, I grew up with fields. We

used to go out and chase pheasants and ducks, and play in the woods, and

now there's a 2.2 billion doll

ar Intel plant being built across the way where I grew up and played in

these fields. There's just a lot of people in the world today, and that's

not going to change. So I think we have to start thinking about not having

as many kids. Maybe just reproduce yourself, and that'll be enough. I've

got two kids, and I think that's enough. And also, you know, being less

indulgent. You know, taking what you need, and maybe consuming things that

don't destroy the environment. You know, keep packing materials. Don't buy

stuff that has a lot of Styrofoam, things that can't be recycled. I think

if you make a conscientious attempt, you can change commerce and the way

people do business, and start to mitigate the effects on the environment.

MJ: How are you helping to shape future policies for the state here?

GK: Well, I'm on a number of advisory councils with the government here,

with the federal and state government, which I'm proud of. But my most

proud achievement is that we take about 10,000 school kids through our

education programs. I believe the answer for tomorrow lies in our kids

today. Treat them to respect the ocean, treat them to respect the

environment. I believe that kids talk to their parents, parents don't talk

to their kids, so I like to go out and get my message to the kids. We take

kids out on whale watches, we take them on a reef watch, we take them on

marine debris cleanups, we have an ocean van that goes to the schools. I'm

dedicated here and world wide. I get hundreds of letters every day, and we

answer every single one of them. Every kid from all around the world, we

send them information, and I believe if kids want to know, they deserve to

have the information, they deserve to have the tools, and I want kids to

make the difference, and if we can start with them, we can affect their

parents as well.

MJ: What would it take for you to look back on your life and feel that

you've accomplished your goals and made a difference? What would you like

to see?

GK: Well, that's interesting. I think for me, it's starting to manifest

itself in my children. But for myself, I think if I would have lived a free

life, a happy life, and an inquisitive life, and thought that I made a

difference, made a difference in how mankind treated its environment, how

mankind became closer to one of its animals, that we began to understand

it, before it went extinct, I think I would have made a good contribution.

I think every day animals go extinct and we know nothing about them. And my

attempt was to really, when I started doing this, is to answer one little

question, and that is, "What is a whale?" You can look it up in a

dictionary, you can look it up in an encyclopedia, but I really wanted to

know, and if I can answer that question, of what is a whale... When you see

whales out in the ocean, what does it mean to you and I? What role are they

really playing in the ecosystem? What if they went extinct? Would it stop

cars on the freeway tomorrow? Would time stop? Would a black blotch come

over the sun? Would we really notice it? And I think if could spend my life

answering that one question, I'll be happy.

MJ: Thanks for joining us, Greg

GK: You're welcome.