Interview with Tom Dimare

MJ: Tom DiMare, thanks for joining us today.

TD: Good to see you.

MJ: Well, tell us something about the DiMare Company.

TD: Well, the DiMare Company is a family business we've operated for over,

or close to 70 years. We're now with our third generation in the business.

It was founded by my father in Boston, Massachusetts. He actually started

in the produce business as a young boy, selling from a pushcart in Faneuil

Hall, which then was a produce area, and is now still well known, but more

as a tourist attraction. In fact, Faneuil Hall is probably one of the

oldest continuous markets in the United States, predating the creation of

this nation. In any case, he started out with a pushcart, and eventually

created a small business, and was joined by his two brothers, and it became

to be known as DiMare Brothers, and eventually, as the business grew, they

expanded across the country, first to Cuba, pre-World War II, and my father

was responsible for that operation, and then with the outset of World War

II, that was shut down because of lack of vessels to transport the product

from Cuba to the mainland. And then we opened up in Florida, in the

meantime, he was, my father was also coming out to California, purchasing

produce for the Boston and New England areas. And eventually we opened up a

facility in California, in fact it was 1950, with a tomato packing house.

We also had facilities in Florida. Moving forward to today, to give you a

quick synopsis, the second generation came on board. The business is now

managed by my cousin Paul DiMare, who resides in Florida, and myself. But

we have at least seven or eight family members working in the business

around the country. And currently we still maintain a wholesale produce

operation in Boston, it's managed by my brother, and we also have three

facilities in Florida, plus a facility in South Carolina, and three

facilities here in California. Our primary focus is, has been, and

continues to be fresh market tomatoes. However, we have diversified, we

handle a fairly extensive line of vegetables in Florida during the winter.

Here in California, we're heavily involved in the citrus business. We're

involved in the import of product from Mexico and other countries, and

we're involved in the export of product, in particular, of citrus, lemons,

grapefruit, oranges to Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore and other Asian markets

as well as some European markets.

MJ: Now, was your father an immigrant himself?

TD: No, he was born in Boston, and was raised in Boston, but his parents,

my grandparents, were immigrants, and they came at about the turn of the

century from Italy, and settled in Boston.

MJ: What do you think motivated your father to get into this business?

TD: Well, the reason that immigrants come to this nation is to succeed, and

somehow or another my grandparents inculcated him and the rest of the

DiMare family, their children, the work ethic and the drive to succeed, and

he wanted to be successful. He told me a story, about how they lived in a

ghetto at the bottom of Beacon Hill, which was where all the wealthy folks

lived in the beautiful homes, and they lived in turn in a tenement, crowded

three to a room, with no heat in the winter time.

MJ: Immigrant family.

TD: Immigrant family, right. He and the two DiMare, other DiMare brothers

that founded the business all shared a room as boys, and all they had for

heat was a gas-like burner with a plate on top of it. So at Christmas time,

Beacon Hill homes were open to the public, and they had music, and they had

caroling, and children could go in and get donuts and cider. As a boy, my

father would go and see these homes, and say, "I want a home like this some

day. I want to live this way some day. And he in fact achieved that

objective, although it wasn't in Beacon Hill. But in fact he is now

retired, and spends part of the year across the Boston Common from Beacon

Hill, so you could say that he achieved his objective. And I think that is

what motivated him.

MJ: Why do you think he chose this particular industry?

TD: I believe he chose the industry because it was accessible to

immigrants. It was a business that rewarded hard work, quickness, and

intelligence, but did not demand a degree to participate. And at that time,

you must remember, that Italians were treated as immigrants, just as maybe

Asians coming from China are treated as immigrants today, or as Mexicans or

Latin Americans are treated today in America, so Italians were treated at

the turn of the century. We had very few, very limited options, in terms of

going into the industries that one would like to go into; finance, or

banking, or whatever, so they had to pick opportunities that were available

to them, and if you look at it, families went into the produce business,

they went into the restaurant business, businesses that could be run by

families, created and managed by families.

MJ: You have a lot of family members involved. Is it difficult? Does it

cause friction sometimes?

TD:Well, I think every family business has friction. The benefit, and the

genius, I should say, of our founders, is that we ended up being

geographically diverse, so we have some family far, we have some family

here, and we have some family in Boston, and we get together, and there's

little if any friction, because we don't see each other on a day to day

basis. I'm sure if you put us all together in a room and kept us there on a

regular basis, there would be a significant amount of friction. But that's

just inherent in almost every family business.

MJ: Give us an idea of your schedule and the kind of things that you're

involved in on a day to day basis.

TD: Well, in this day and age... Going back to when I started, when I first

came to California and became manager of our California operations in 1970,

it was a very small operation, it operated six weeks a year, and it

produced maybe 250,000 packages of produce. Today we operate 12 months of

the year, and we probably pick, pack, distribute and handle, and sell close

to 6 or 7 million packages a year. So the business has grown significantly.

But when I first came out here, I did everything. I was in sales, and I

even was involved in... I would go out in the morning, and start the

harvest crews, and then I would come in and get the packing house running,

and I would stay at the packing house, and keep it running, and go back out

to the field and check, and then stay until the last truck was loaded, say

at about 11:00 p.m. And that was a six day a week program for about 6 or 7

weeks. It was really quite strenuous. And then I would also help out on

sales at the end of the season when the rest of the team had to go back to

Florida. Now I find that, you know, because we're much larger, I can't do

all those tasks, so those tasks have been delegated to others. And also,

the regulatory environment has changed, so we find that we're spending,

people like myself are spending a great deal more time dealing with legal

and regulatory matters than dealing with the actual functioning of the

business. Although I have full responsibility for all functions, I have a

team of excellent people that cover those functions on our behalf. Does

that help answer the question for you?

MJ: Yeah. I noticed a little bit of a Boston accent still. Has it remained

over the years?

TD: It comes and goes, depending on stress and tension. If I'm really

relaxed, and not at all concerned about a particular issue, then it's

barely if at all noticeable. But if you get me mad, you'll hear it very

loud and clear.

MJ: What product do you deal the most in, in terms of volume? Is it the

tomatoes still?

TD: Yes, tomatoes are our most significant volume item, although citrus is

becoming a much more significant item for us.

MJ: What makes a good tomato? How do you keep it fresh and good?

TD: That's a tough question, because first of all, the issue is, "What is a

good tomato?" But as far as we are concerned, it's all... It begins with

the selection of the soil and the variety, the fertilizer program, the

irrigation regime, the time of year that you grow it. Certainly tomatoes

that are growing out of the spring into the summer, inherently, because of

the long warm days, are probably more flavorful than a tomato that's being

harvested in the fall or the winter, in short days. And a field tomato

verses a hothouse tomato, although people talk about hothouse tomatoes,

time and time again field tomatoes, field grown tomatoes, naturally grown

tomatoes, in blind tastings come out equal to, if not better than hothouse.

But also the way you harvest the tomato and the way you handle the tomato

through the distribution process. That's probably the most critical factor.

Refrigeration is death to tomato flavor and to tomato quality. Anytime a

tomato is held below 55 degrees or 52 degrees temperature for more than 12

hours, the volatile compounds that contribute to tomato flavor are lost, so

the tomato becomes totally, or almost completely flavorless. And that's why

we hear so much about tomatoes that don't taste good. It's not that they

don't taste good when harvest packed, or put on the truck, it's because

from the time they get onto a truck to the time the time they reach the

consumer and they take it off the shelf, they've been refrigerated, and all

the goodness, all the flavor goodness that was in them has been lost

through the distribution channel.

MJ: What about citrus? What are the challenges with citrus?

TD: Well, citrus is a different type of challenge. First of all, you don't

have this fragility in terms of flavor and quality. Tomatoes are very very

fragile, and they take a lot of care. And that's not to say that citrus

doesn't, but it has a longer shelf life, it has more durability because it

has a thicker skin. So a lot of the issues that we deal with in tomatoes

are also applicable to citrus, however it's not as critical. I would say

the major issue with citrus is to find the marketplace for the product, and

certainly a portion of that is export. We need to be in the export market

as an industry and as a company, and we need to be finding new markets.

Also the big issue with citrus, especially in the winter time, with, say,

lemons or navels, is weather, You can lose an entire crop due to a cold

winter. And that of course is a very serious issue when it happens, but it

doesn't happen every year, or that frequently, but when it does happen,

it's devastating.

MJ: What percent of your products go to foreign markets?

TD: It depends on the year. We've had as high as 30 percent of our

grapefruit go to Japan, or other Asian or European markets, and maybe

actually 35 percent, other years only 10 percent, and it's a function of

supply, from here, from other places in the nation, as well as other

countries. And it's also a function of the dollar exchange rate with the

currency that you're dealing with overseas, whether it be European

countries, or Asian currencies.

MJ: Do you get any suggestions from other countries, and do you ever try to

incorporate those suggestions in the way you prepare the product?

TD: Oh, certainly. We have a new product in citrus called "oro blanco",

which is picked green, and in Japan it's known as the "sweetie", and we've

worked very closely with our customers in Japan, which is the major market,

in terms of packaging, how to present the product and deliver the product,

how to pick the product, what kind of flavor they're seeking, and we have

them here during the harvest season, which is very short, almost every day.

He's looking at the product, advising us on packing, checking the flavor,

advising us on what to put in the box and what not to put in the box.

MJ: What sort of differences do you notice in different countries in terms

of the flavor or the sweetness or the packaging? What do different

countries look for that you've noticed?

TD: Well, one of the unique differentials is color. Some countries respond

in particular in Asia, to the color black on cartons, whereas in European

countries or Latin countries or the U.S., North America, black is not a

very good color, because of it's connotations of death, etc. There's some

colors that are taboo, and off the top of my head I can't recall them, but

we have a little list of colors that we don't use in certain countries, be

it in Asia or Latin America or Europe because those connote death in those

cultures, so you stay away from that. Also, the difference that we see is

the demand for size. Some countries want large size fruit, some countries

prefer small size fruit. Each country has its own specification in regard

to quality. Of course, Japan has the absolute highest specification in

terms of quality. They're very demanding, but given that they're very

demanding, they're more than willing to pay the value for the quality.

MJ: How has market access been for you in Japan?

TD: In Japan, that's a subject I must treat delicately, because it has been

difficult, and I understand the reasons for the difficulty, but I do

believe that access has improved significantly in the last several years.

I've been involved in several trips and missions to Japan over the years,

first when they were working on bringing California walnuts into Japan,

which eventually was successful, and lately on bringing fresh market

tomatoes into Japan. We were there, a year ago March... The DiMare company,

incidentally, is the first company to send a commercial shipment of

California, or U.S. fresh market tomatoes to Japan, and that was done, in

fact, a week ago today it left our facility, and it's on the water as we

speak, and will hopefully arrive in beautiful condition in another couple

of days. And we believe that this will be the beginning of a very good,

long term market for California tomatoes.

MJ: You mentioned that you've expanded over the past several years in

different products. Do you see yourself getting involved in any other new

products in the future?

TD: Well, as of the moment we are in the process of doing a plan, a

strategic plan to determine where we go and what we do for the next five to

seven years, and out of that will evolve identification of the opportunity

areas, and actions that relate to those opportunity areas.

MJ: Would we see you getting involved in grapes some day for instance?

TD: Well, in fact we do handle grapes among other items. We handle

asparagus, we handle mixed vegetables, we handle lemons, tangerines,

oranges, grapefruit. We handle regular tomatoes, Roman tomatoes, we grow

organic tomatoes, so we have a pretty broad line of products as it is, and

if you wish I can give you a product list for your own information.

MJ: Can you talk a bit about pesticides and the issues that have come up

over the recent years in regard to that?

TD: Well, there's fact and there's fiction. I'll deal with the fact.

California, bar none, based on our surveys, meaning the state surveys, our

own personal experience in dealing with different places in the world...We

have imported product from Australia, Chile, other Latin American

countries, New Zealand, so we have a good deal of experience about what,

Mexico, and what they do in these countries. And I can say emphatically

based on our own experience and the experience that the State of California

Department of Fruit and Ag. has had, we have the best pesticide regulatory

environment in the world, and it is by far the safest and most controlled.

Every single application that a grower applies to a crop in the state of

California has to be notified to the public authorities so there's an

absolute 100 percent record of every material applied. There's no fiction

about it. It's fact. If you wish to know what was applied to a specific

crop, that data is available. And what it indicates is that we are

reasonable users of pesticides as a state, and we are as a state organized

to implement and have implemented very aggressively integrated pest

management. We've been pioneers in that area. That results in less

pesticides, and less usage. We are pioneers as a state in large scale

organic farming, which means zero usage, so California is really

exceptional by any world standard in terms of what they do with pesticides.

And one point I wish to make is there are many pesticides available to

growers as tools, but it's rather like a garage, and a little tool cabinet

in your garage. You have many tools, but when you're repairing your car,

you may only use the screwdriver, one wrench and a pair of pliers, although

you have 100 tools. The same is true with pesticides. In any given year,

few if any growers in California use every single pesticide that's

available to them. They probably use a fraction of the pesticides

available. But in a course of five or ten years, they may have used all

products, but in one year, in terms of our own company, we find that we

only use about 30 to 40 percent, usually around 25 to 30 percent of the

products available to us as tools for pesticide use. And as to the amount

that we use of each, we find that rarely do we exceed 50 percent of the

allowable usage rate published by the federal government. So the actual

usage of pesticides is far less than what the availability of pesticides

is.

MJ: What about the issue of organic farming? Do you notice a difference in

the taste between organic farm products and not?

TD: Well, since we grow organics, and I can do a comparison, I think that

weather conditions and soil conditions and water have more impact than the

type of fertilizer you use or don't use. What I've noticed is that

sometimes the organics taste better, and sometimes the regular commercially

grown tomatoes taste better. And it's just a function of when in the season

they're harvested and what soil they're on, where they're located

geographically. What's interesting about organics is that you can produce

commercial crops, cost effectively, some years. What's also true about

organics is that if and when the industry, and it appears we're moving more

and more in that way... As agriculture either in California or nationally

or globally goes more toward organic production, there's going to be a

greater variability in supply, because it is less controllable. And in good

years you can have excellent control, even do better than with chemicals,

but on challenging years you're going to do much worse. So there's going to

be a crop shortfall in what I call the challenging years for organics, but

probably good crops, and maybe even better crops in good years, that are

good years for growing organics.

MJ: Where are your fruits and vegetables grown primarily?

TD: As to California?

MJ: Or just in general.

TD: Well, as I said earlier, we grow in Florida, southern Florida,

Homestead area, south central Florida, Immokolee, central Florida in and

around the, or just below the Tampa area, a place called Ruskin between

Sarasota and Tampa. And then we also grow in South Carolina close to

Charleston, a place called John's Island, and then we grow here in

California in the Coachella Valley, which is where we're located today,

near Palm Springs, and then we also grow in the San Juaquin Valley. And of

course the San Juaquin Valley is a very large area, and in that area we

grow is several geographic locations within a hundred miles of our packing

house.

MJ: Do you have any plans to shift any production overseas to Mexico or

other countries in the future?

TD: Well, on some products we work with Mexican growers now. We are looking

to work with growers in Central and Latin America on some products in the

not too distant future, possibly this winter, but as to our tomato

production, for the time being we see that our best opportunities are here

because of the challenges and difficulties you run into in other countries.

We have standards that we wish to abide by that are difficult to abide by

in other countries, and we don't want to violate those standards. It's

taken us many many years to develop them, both as a company and as a state,

and we prefer to operate by California standards because it gives us that,

what we believe is a competitive edge that exists nowhere else. And to

violate that state standard is not in our best interests or in the

consumer's best interests.

MJ: You talked a little bit about government, various interventions and red

tape and so forth, has that become an increasing problem over recent years?

TD: Well, I was once told, maybe 15 years ago, that food is politics, and

it was going to become more and more political as time progressed, and I

laughed. And what is true today is that food is politics, and if one were

to do a pie chart of how one spends their time, you're spending at least 50

percent of your time dealing with political issues, the regulatory issues,

the public relations issues revolving around regulation and politics.

MJ: What are some examples of the kinds of things you're dealing with daily

that take your time?

TD: Well, some of the examples are... For example the regulations that have

to do with employment. The Environment, the Federal Environmental

Protection Agency has a certain set of standards for workers. The OSHA

program, the federal OSHA program has another set of standards, and they

are, in fact, absolutely and unequivocally contradictory. And so we have

one agency that comes in and tells us to do it one way, and we do it, and

they fine us if we don't. Then we have another agency that comes in and

tells us to do it the other way, and if we don't do it the other way they

fine us if we don't. So we end up in this morass that we don't... for which

there is no escape, from which there is no escape. And that's a very

serious and stressful problem. One of the members of the Western Growers

Association buses his workers to work, which is environmentally friendly.

Which is what we try and do, because we are the ultimate environmentalists.

We protect lots and lots of land and open space. It reduces down to 30

buses from 350 to 400 cars, a significant reduction in pollution. But the

Labor Department says if a person drives to the field, and you have to

postpone harvest because there's ice on the lettuce, that if he drives to

the field, start time is when you start harvesting. On the other hand the

Labor Department says, the U.S. Department of Labor, if you bring people to

work on a bus, 15 minutes after they arrive at the field in the bus, you

must commence paying them, although harvest may not start for two hours. So

you're penalized by the Department of Labor for being a good

environmentalist. So it is a serious challenge, and a significant time user

for those of us that are in agriculture.

MJ: Is it getting worse or better?

TD: I would say that if they did nothing more in terms of regulatory or

legislative action it would continue to get worse, because as the

bureaucrats become more and more zealous in the application of these

regulations, there's more and more problems to deal with.

MJ: You have a degree in political science.

TD: Right.

MJ: How does that apply to what you're doing now, and were you planning on

a career in politics at the time?

TD: Well certainly not a career in politics. I did think about going to law

school, and probably given the amount of money I've spent today on lawyers

it would have been a good choice. But my father decided that a college

education was sufficient, and he wanted me to go to work. But I majored in

political science because it was of interest to me, and I didn't think I

was going to learn the produce business in college. And I thought that it

was just strictly an interest. But in fact the lessons I learned in college

about political science have served me extremely well in dealing with the

issues that we've had to deal with in the last decade or so. It turned out

to be the perfect education for the situation we find ourselves in today.

MJ: Now, you're last name's DiMare, obviously. Did you have, I mean, could

you have been a banker or a lawyer or a baseball player? Did you have

family pressure to get into this business?

TD: Oh certainly. In Italian families and probably other families in the

other ethnic groups that are first or second generation, there's enormous

pressure to join the family business if that's the career path. Just as if

your family has a history of being lawyers, there's enormous pressure to be

a lawyer.

MJ: Was that an issue you struggled with, or did you coast into it, or... ?

TD: I think you can compare it to the draft army verses the volunteer army.

I was a draftee. But the challenges have been terrific, and ultimately the

pay turned out to be good. At first it wasn't very good.

MJ: What does the DiMare family eat at home? What are your favorite fruits

and vegetables that you like to eat?

TD: Well, it's interesting you ask that, because in fact our diet has

changed as the American diet has changed. When I was a boy in the '50's, we

ate lots of steak. We always had salad, and we always had these exotic

foods that nobody could understand, like artichokes. In the '50's, I mean,

what do you do with it? And what we called escarole or dandelion greens,

which are now, I guess they call escarole now friget, the French name. It's

very expensive. But, you know, my youth as a child, escarole, which is

friget, was very cheap and a very ethnic food, and it wasn't consumed by a

nybody but maybe a few Italians and Greeks and French people from the

countryside. But as times have changed, so our diets have changed. We find

at home today that we eat significantly more larger quantities of fruits

and vegetables, and far less meats than in the past. I mean, we've probably

reversed the ratio. If it was two thirds - one third before, now it's the

other way, two thirds fruits and vegetables, one third meats of various

kinds.

MJ: What's your personal favorite?

TD: In my diet? Oh boy. Ice cream.

MJ: Of the stuff that you grow, what is your personal favorite?

TD: Oh, I'd say that in the middle of the, in the beginning of the season

with tomatoes and just about every product, I love grapefruit, I like to

have it every morning for breakfast, but what I love probably better than

anything is a good red ripe tomato, sliced very thick, on toasted whole

wheat, whole grain bread, with a little bit of mustard and little bit of

olive oil, fresh basil, and maybe some green, you know, greens in there.

And just slice it half and eat it and let it drip all over me. You see the

hamburger ads with the ketchup dripping, I want the real tomato dripping.

I also enjoy making fresh tomato sauce. Take the tomatoes, chop them up, a

little oil, a little garlic, a little basil, let it just marinate in its

own juices, then cook up the pasta and just put it on.

MJ: Tell us about the future of the company, and will your kids be involved

one day as well?

TD: Well, I have two big guys, and one is involved in politics in

Sacramento, in fact he's the chief counsel, I shouldn't say counsel, but

advisor or consultant they call it to the Assembly Ag. Committee. And my

middle son is working for us in the company, and has been since he

graduated from college. In fact, he works here in Indio now. Then I have

two little ones, four and two and a half, and I'm not sure what will exist

in that day and age. What's true about family businesses is that it's rare

that they survive and succeed in the second generation. Even more rare,

like two percent probability they survive through the second generation.

Change is happening so rapidly, in America and globally throughout the

culture and the society and the business community, that I'd say it's

almost impossible to predict what will happen. It would be our hope that

the business continues, but as businessmen first, we need to look at the

realities of what our options are, and if we have to make a change, we will

certainly make a change for the better of the family.

MJ: In what ways do you try to inspire your kids or give your kids a sense

of what this is about, and pass on the mantle so to speak?

TD: Well, there's two issues there. First of all, the DiMare brothers, the

founders of the company had superb values; hard work, dedication, focus

and integrity. And the produce business, globally, is by word of mouth. We

transact all our business by phone. So the produce industry which is

billions of dollars a year in aggregate in the United States is all

transacted by phone, no contracts. So your integrity, your word, is very

important. And that's also true internationally, although we may use

letters of credit and all, it's still important to know who you're dealing

with, and to trust them, because it's a business based on trust, and word

of mouth, and a verbal contract. So integrity is very important. They

inculcated that; be honest, be forthright, be tough, don't back down, but

be fair. As to what we pass on, we try to pass on those lessons, but as to

how I do it, as I said, I was a draftee, and now I'm dealing with

volunteers. I will not draft anybody. So I probably was hammered, as were

the others in my generation by their fathers, and what I see today is that

we don't use the hammer, and in fact we may have overreacted the other way,

we're too gentle. But after having the experience of that tough

upbringing... The men who were our mentors and our bosses had only one way

to deliver the message, and that was a tough way. And we probably backed

off, we have in fact backed off from that significantly. What is true about

Italian family businesses is a lot of yelling and screaming, and certainly

we've moved away from that because other people can't deal with it, and our

organization is much bigger than the family today, and moving away with

that, we have to learn a new process, and maybe the third generation will

capture the new process more effectively than the second generation. We're

caught between the old and the new. We're the translators of the old and

the acceptors of the new. The next generation are new, pure and simple,

with excellent values from the founders, but not the ways and mores that

they had when they were in charge of the business.

MJ: So your kids will be there because they want to be there.

TD: Correct. Correct. And if they don't want to be, that's fine too.

There's plenty of opportunity in this world.

MJ: Thanks for joining us today, Tom.

TD: Ok. You're welcome. A pleasure to have you here, hope you enjoyed it.

Hope I was helpful.

MJ: Well Tom, thanks for joining us today.

TD: Thank you for being here. I hope you enjoyed it and found it useful.

MJ: Thank you.

TD: Have a good day.